Location: The 20/20 segment on John Sarno and TMS

Discussion: Backpain and stress

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flutterby2	Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 7:07 AM EDT Here is a link to a 'normal' website about backpain, fibromyalgia etc with plenty to read about conventional diagnoses and treatments. But I thought it was interesting that it supports Dr Sarno's theory about lack of oxygen. http://www.bigbackpain.com/stressandbackpain.html alongside the usual 'physical' approach. "Muscle tension reduces blood flow to the tissues (reduced oxygen and nutrients to the tissues). Reduced blood flow delays healing." It does make me wonder whether for some of us, sometimes, there IS an underlying structural cause, exacerbated and prolonged by psychological factors. I know this sounds like 'heresy' but I think it may be wiser to consider all options that might explain why some people may have a particularly hard time becoming painfree, rather than encouraging them to frustrate and exhaust themselves digging ever deeper into the psychological issues to no avail? I'd be interested to hear what others think. Post reply 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: tumor toe amputation
pandamonium09	1. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 7:39 AM EDT Mmm, interesting reading, and great to see such an article on a converntional medical website. Having said that I think it's dangerous to go down the "sometimes, there IS an underlying structural cause" route. I always go back to the quote in HBP, if the femur only takes 6 weeks to heal, is it realistic to expect pain from an injury that happened months or even years ago? I don't think so. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
webdan65	2. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 7:51 AM EDT "It does make me wonder whether for some of us, sometimes, there IS an underlying structural cause, exacerbated and prolonged by psychological factors." Or, perhaps as Dr. Sarno suggests, it's the psychological factors that are causing the reduced blood flow. I'm with Dr. Sarno on this one. Our emotions can change our bodies in an instant. Embarrassed? Our face flushes red in mere seconds. If we see blood, some of us even pass out or throw up. THAT is a change to our physiology based on the emotions of being grossed out. We react SO traumatically that the emotion of seeing blood makes us pass out or vomit. Ever just escaped a bad car accident? Our bodies shake and our heart pumps. THAT is the stress response kicking in - and it changes our bodies in an instant. I'm totally with Sarno that persistent negative emotions can cause blood flow restrictions which can cause spasm and pain. All completely harmless in that nothing is "broken". Just painful as anything we've ever felt. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	3. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 12:14 PM EDT I'm not for one moment denying that our emotions can change our bodies and in fact be the cause of pain and other symptoms. What I'm questioning is whether it is always a case of EITHER physical OR psychological or whether sometimes it might be a case of physical AND psychological? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	4. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 1:14 PM EDT Panda, I'm not completely convinced that the example of the healing of the femur can be generalised to all other tissues. I'm on shaky ground here, not being a medical person, but my understanding was that when a bone heals, unless it is osteoporotic, the healed portion becomes stronger than the original. Whereas ligaments are notoriously difficult to heal and even when they do, they may heal at their most extended length, causing laxity to the joint affected, which sets the joint up for further injury and possibly arthritis eventually. If I'm wrong about this, I'd be glad if someone could let me know! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
webdan65	5. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 1:16 PM EDT It's the old chicken and egg question. Which one came first? That's what makes this TMS bugger such a challenge sometimes. I do have to disagree with the TMS purists. Not EVERYTHING is TMS. My experience is mostly back pain - muscle spasms. In my belief - most of THAT is TMS. When people claim that everything else under the sun is - I get skeptical too. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
pandamonium09	6. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 18 2009, 2:09 PM EDT "Panda, I'm not completely convinced that the example of the healing of the femur can be generalised to all other tissues. I'm on shaky ground here, not being a medical person, but my understanding was that when a bone heals, unless it is osteoporotic, the healed portion becomes stronger than the original. Whereas ligaments are notoriously difficult to heal and even when they do, they may heal at their most extended length, causing laxity to the joint affected, which sets the joint up for further injury and possibly arthritis eventually. If I'm wrong about this, I'd be glad if someone could let me know!" I'm on shaky ground too, but Sarno says that quote and he's a doctor, and I trust him. And believeing stuff like that, and repeating it to myself is what keeps me out of pain. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	7. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 30 2009, 5:55 PM EDT I think I have ‘happened upon’ a description of what I was wondering about! A link posted on the TMShelp forum led me to this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/back_pain/causesback_screen.shtml The relevant passages are: ‘The muscles and ligaments supporting the spine become traumatised, bruised or inflamed. Most lower back pain doesn't result from injury to the bones of the spine, but from the strain and pressure put on the tissues whose job it is to support the spine.’ and ‘High levels of stress, anxiety and tension, which increase muscle tension throughout the body and the chance of a sudden sprain.’ This final sentence seems to be describing exactly what I believe happens with me from time to time, eg a few weeks ago. My anxiety and tension at the time was beyond doubt a huge factor – also I’ve noticed retrospectively that getting cold seems to be another factor when this happens – but I do believe that I physically strained or sprained something (most likely a ligament), which I probably wouldn’t have done if I’d been more relaxed – and warmer! So I needed to do the psychological work but I couldn't in all honestly say that there was nothing wrong with my back. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
webdan65	8. RE: Backpain and stress Sep 30 2009, 9:21 PM EDT \| Post edited: Sep 30 2009, 9:23 PM EDT Flutterby, a couple thoughts. I'm not a doctor and would never say that we cannot injure ourselves. We can and do. Sometimes. What works for me is this belief that I am strong and that my body is not frail, weak or easily broken or "sprained". Trauma happens, but usually not from mild turns or twists. Falls, car accidents and other bodily assaults can hurt us. However, I'm firmly convinced that normal activities cannot hurt us. My first bout of back pain came about while putting on my underwear. Many subsequent "attacks" started by doing nothing more than bending over a desk or reaching for something. For me - I know that these movements were a trigger - and not a real injury or sprain. Believing we are injured is playing into whatever mechanism TMS uses to then keep us in pain and avoid whatever else is going on or buried deep emotionally. So I must agree with Panda that a firm belief that we are not broken - and repeating it to ourselves over and over and over again provides for a much greater chance of keeping us out of pain. It also (at least for me) helps me to ignore those minor tweaks where TMS wants us to go "Oh NO!!!!" Now, whenever I get a tweak or a muscle spasm on the golf course, or riding a dirt bike or doing whatever, I quickly tell myself it's nothing and pay it NO mind at all. And guess what? It doesn't turn into any drawn out pain episode. It quickly dissipates and is gone. I wasn't able to conquer TMS until I had developed an unshakable belief and a real certainty that my body was perfectly fine. The challenge is developing that belief and certainty when we are in pain and/or fearful of it's return. For me, nothing works better than controlling my self talk. What we say to ourselves and about ourselves really has the greatest impact on our lives over anything else. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	9. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 4:00 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 4:00 AM EDT Thanks, Webdan. What I keep coming back to is: how can we know for certain that we do not have a physical 'injury' or weakness? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
pandamonium09	10. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 5:27 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 5:27 AM EDT "Thanks, Webdan. What I keep coming back to is: how can we know for certain that we do not have a physical 'injury' or weakness?" Flutterby, for me there is some "physical injury" eek, just typing that gives me the creeps. I have (or had) an annular fissure. But I truly truly believe that it's not causing me pain. I think to overcome TMS you have to truly believe that whatever "weaknesses" or injuries are there, they are not the source of your pain, repressed emotions, fear or conditioning are doing that. I guess what you are asking though is "How do I get that belief?" And the answer (from me at least) is I'm not sure. Maybe someone with a bigger brain can explain it better than me. But it sounds like no matter how much info we throw at you you just can't make that leap? And while that doubt continues TMS has something to feed off. I'm not sure what else to say... Panda x Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	11. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 6:10 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 6:11 AM EDT Panda, you are quite right - what I'm asking is 'how do we get that belief?' To me it seems that all the 'info' you mention is rather subjective because it is coming from people who know for sure that they have TMS. But how can they know about other people (rhetorical question!) ? Dr Schubiner's advice on the 'So you think you may have TMS' page states very clearly that it's necessary to see a doctor to rule out non-TMS conditions. That would be fine if there were plenty of easily accessible doctors who were open to the possibility of TMS but at the same time knowledgeable about structural causes of pain. But, as far as I can see, there are very few TMS doctors and possibly just as few doctors who really know what they're talking about when it comes to backpain! Someone posted recently that their doctor said, 'it sounds like sciatica' - that really isn't good enough, is it! The part of the Sarno approach that really worries me is the 'resume normal activities' if the 'patient' doesn't have a definite diagnosis of TMS. It maybe OK but then again, it may not! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	12. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 6:16 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 6:16 AM EDT I think it was someone reviewing 'Healing Backpain' on Amazon who said, 'When you have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like a nail'! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Louise-Levy	13. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 6:33 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 6:36 AM EDT If you really dont feel you are getting any where with this problem through journaling it might be that you need to work with Repressed emotions ( ie ones that are subconscious which means you are unaware of them) rather than supressed ones, and the only way you can get to repressed emotions is through hypnosis because through hypnosis you can build a memory of a feeling of comfort, which you can bring back whenever you need to. When you are deeply relaxed in hypnosis it reduces the emotional impact of chronic pain, so you cannot feel angry or upset or depressed etc. When in this hypnotic state your imagination is working in a more powerful way and so your unconscious mind is more responsive to accept suggestions and finally most importantly when your unconscious mind is open to suggestion, a hypnotherapist can help you change your conditioned response towards pain. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
pandamonium09	14. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 7:24 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 7:24 AM EDT But Flutterby, correct me if I am wrong: you decided to treat your pain as TMS (without a formal diagnosis) just to see what would happen? AND you saw a marked improvement? Now your doubts are creeping in, your mind is wandering back to the physical. It's such a shame that Dr Atkinson is no longer available, otherwise I'd suggest you go and see him. Failing that I hear that the West Yorkshire countryside is stunning this time of year, maybe you need a short holiday to the land of Georgina?? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	15. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 8:06 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 8:14 AM EDT Thank you for your suggestions, Louise and panda. It's not that I'm not getting anywhere - I'm doing fine! My concern is that if we become overly zealous about the Sarno approach, without asking appropriate questions, we may on occasion give people harmful advice, either in terms of them actually needing physical treatment or by raising false hopes, which can lead to great frustration. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
pandamonium09	16. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 8:36 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 8:36 AM EDT Ah, now I see where you are coming from, sort of. We're not doctors, we must always stress to newbies the importance of getting medically checked out first, although most people have done that to death before they discover TMS. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	17. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 8:58 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 8:58 AM EDT "Ah, now I see where you are coming from, sort of. We're not doctors, we must always stress to newbies the importance of getting medically checked out first, although most people have done that to death before they discover TMS." I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough. It probably got confusing because I was giving myself as an example. If this website had been in existence in 1984, no amount of journaling or hypnosis, or 'belief' would have helped with my pain at that time! There are two points that come out of what you've written - first, the importance of stressing getting a proper diagnosis. But a further point comes out of that one - it's often very difficult to get a 'proper diagnosis' with backpain! (Again, I'm a case in point!) I am tending to think that we need to make it an important objective to somehow get more TMS doctors and hopefully some who will treat patients free of charge. I don't think the fact that, for many, ridding themselves of pain incurs expense helps to encourage people to investigate TMS - there will often be some residual scepticism about people making money out of their suffering. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
pandamonium09	18. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 9:18 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 9:18 AM EDT I am a case in point: in 10 years I had NO diagnosis for my pain. We are ants looking up at the top of Mt Everest. It's gonna take a long long time to get up there. We are few and out influence is very small. If we cannot convince people (make them believe) that their pain has its roots in their emotions, how can we convince medical professionals whose whole adult life has been spent learning and treating the physical? It's going to be a long hard battle. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
flutterby2	19. RE: Backpain and stress Oct 1 2009, 9:56 AM EDT \| Post edited: Oct 1 2009, 9:56 AM EDT " " " We are few and out influence is very small." Do you know this story? "Tell me the weight of a snowflake," a coalmouse asked a wild dove. "Nothing more than nothing," the dove answered. "In that case I must tell you a marvelous story," the coalmouse said. "I sat on a fir branch close to the trunk when it began to snow. Not heavily, not in a raging blizzard. No, just like in a dream, without any violence at all. Since I didn't have anything better to do, I counted the snowflakes settling on the twigs and needles of my branch. Their number was exactly 3,471,952. When the next snowflake dropped onto the branch--nothing more than nothing -- as you say -- the branch broke off." Source unknown Maybe it's the same with spreading the word to the health professionals about TMS? Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?

Location: The 20/20 segment on John Sarno and TMS

Discussion: Backpain and stress

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