Showing 9 posts
flutterby2
flutterby2
facet joint problems
Oct 20 2009, 5:57 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 5:57 AM EDT
I am not the person who asked the question but your answer interested me because I have had a lot of experience of backpain and have worked voluntarily with many others with back problems. I wonder whether you have come across Sarah Key's and her work?

http://www.sarahkey.com/page.cfm?pageID=2

I bought 'Back in Action' many years ago and thought it made a lot of sense. I also have her later book, 'Back Sufferer's Bible' which is less wide-ranging but goes into more detail about the facet joints, which she claims are th source of a great deal of backpain.

If you read the reviews of her books on the uk amazon site, as well as those on her own website, you will see how many people have benefited from her work. Are you saying she's got it wrong?

BTW Sarah Key does cite 'tension' as a contributory factor and there is a section in which she addresses depression in relation to longstanding pain. Do you find this valuable?    
Peghanson
Peghanson
1. RE: facet joint problems
Oct 20 2009, 8:38 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 8:38 AM EDT
Hi flutterby,

I will forward your follow up question to Dr. Stracks. I will post his response on the same page as the original question. Do you find this valuable?    
flutterby2
flutterby2
2. RE: facet joint problems
Oct 20 2009, 9:15 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 9:15 AM EDT
"Hi flutterby,

I will forward your follow up question to Dr. Stracks. I will post his response on the same page as the original question."
Thank you, Peg - I obviously haven't worked out all the Wonders of the Wiki yet! I didn't realise the thread would show up in the General Discussions page. I thought it would just carry on on the page where it started, automatically, like the threads on Members' Profiles! I didn't mean to add to your 'todo' list! :-(

On the other hand, maybe it's not such a bad thing as others might have something to add to this discussion, or just be interested in reading it. Do you find this valuable?    
Peghanson
Peghanson
3. RE: facet joint problems
Oct 20 2009, 10:28 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 10:28 AM EDT
Not a problem. It's probably good it showed up here, since it might have been missed on the
Q&A page. Also, as you said, others may benefit from hearing his answer, if he feels able to add anything additional. However, in reviewing his answer to the original question, he seems to have answered the general question about facet disease and TMS.

>"Degenerative facet disease is a recently "discovered" condition in which the facet joints (the areas between the sides of the vertebral bones) are thought to become arthritic and inflamed leading to severe pain.

As can be seen in many areas of this wiki and in other writings on TMS, numerous studies over the years have failed to convincingly demonstrate a connection between arthritis and other degenerative conditions and chronic pain. That is, MRIs of healthy control subject frequently show the same "degenerative" changes that are seen in patients with chronic pain.

Degenerative facet disease is simply one of the latest names given to what is likely a normal process but which can certainly be the locus around which TMS pain is organized.

So, yes, I would say that Degenerative Facet Disease is absolutely a form of TMS."
Do you find this valuable?    
flutterby2
flutterby2
4. RE: facet joint problems
Oct 20 2009, 12:15 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 12:15 PM EDT
Hi Peg - I agree that Dr Strack has 'answered the general question about facet disease and TMS' but he has done so by giving his opinion. No doubt other TMS professionals would agree with him, although I asked one who wrote in favour of replacing arthritic joints (knees, hips...) about arthritis in the spine and he advised not sitting too long and exercises, ie a physical remedy!

So obviously different opinions exist in relation to this and I believe that people are best served, wherever possible, by hearing both sides of the argument before making up their minds whether they have TMS or not. Do you find this valuable?    
Peghanson
Peghanson
5. RE: facet joint problems
Nov 3 2009, 12:51 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 12:51 PM EST
Hi flutterby,
Dr. Stracks sent a response to your follow up question about facet disease. Here is his answer:

Hi,
I am not familiar with the work of Sarah Key, but when I looked up her website it did not appear to me that the two techniques are mutually exclusive.

Research in the past 10 years has shown that pain is a multi-dimensional phenomenon that includes sensory inputs but also emotional and psychological inputs. Our experience in teaching people about TMS has been that for those who can understand and accept the diagnosis of TMS the pain gets mostly or completely better because the emotional and psychological factors that contribute to the pain are changed.

It is quite likely that by eliminating the initial physical signal through spinal manipulation some people could also significantly decrease their overall experience of pain. The patients who come to see me, however, often-times feel that spinal manipulation never cured their pain for very long. My explanation for this is that, because the emotional/psychological factors have not changed, once the physical signal comes back the pain does as well.

There's certainly more than one way to skin a cat, but in my experience the most effective way to handle chronic back pain has been by understanding the TMS concepts. My guess from reading Sarah Key's website would be that she would agree that truly healing the pain includes tending to emotional and psychological factors as well.

Thanks for your question.
Dr. Stracks Do you find this valuable?    
Peghanson
Peghanson
6. RE: facet joint problems
Nov 3 2009, 2:39 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 2:39 PM EST
Your question and Dr. Stracks response has also been posted to the Q&A page:

http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Q%26A%3A+Is+it+possible+that+the+pain+from+diagnosed+%22degenerative+facet+disease%22+is+really+TMS%3F Do you find this valuable?    
flutterby2
flutterby2
7. RE: facet joint problems
Nov 5 2009, 4:25 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 4:25 AM EST
"Your question and Dr. Stracks response has also been posted to the Q&A page:

http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Q%26A%3A+Is+it+possible+that+the+pain+from+diagnosed+%22degenerative+facet+disease%22+is+really+TMS%3F"
Thanks, Peg.

I'm not sure where to reply but presumably my reply will come up on both pages? Do you find this valuable?    
flutterby2
flutterby2
8. RE: facet joint problems
Nov 5 2009, 4:26 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 4:27 AM EST
Thank you for your reply, Dr Stracks. It’s tricky discussing this issue with someone who hasn’t read any of Sarah Key’s books but I’ll do my best.

You wrote;

“The patients who come to see me, however, often-times feel that spinal manipulation never cured their pain for very long.”

Sarah Key’s treatment is not ‘spinal manipulation’ but mobilisation (she explains the difference) followed up by ‘self-treatment’ on an ongoing basis, just like TMS ‘treatment’. So it isn’t expected that a few appointments with a physiotherapist will permanently ‘cure’ the pain.

Sarah Key certainly does acknowledge the role of tension in backpain, but inasmuch as her ‘treatment’ involves diagnosing the facet joints as the root of the problem and treatment/exercises as the ‘cure’, I don’t understand how you can say that that the two techniques aren’t mutually exclusive. As I understand it, one of the key factors in Dr Sarno’s method, necessary for success, is to believe there is no physical problem.

Where the two techniques do overlap is in advising increasing activity and attending to psychological factors, both of which are beneficial for backpain; also, they are similar in recommending that patients educate themselves about the cause of their pain, and largely take responsibility for their own improvement.

But it is obviously impossible for patients to ‘educate’ themselves when the information available is so contradictory, on the one hand, the facet joints are causing the pain, on the other hand, facet joint syndrome is a ‘fashion’ and doesn’t really exist.

Wouldn’t it be fascinating to see some proper research into the results of both methods, Sarah Key’s and John Sarno’s?
Do you find this valuable?    

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